Curse

garethporlest18 · Nov 09, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

I don't know what the hell you people are talking about, I never have any enemies run away from me. If the monk isn't attacking, I don't attack it, he can't overpower my damage with his heals cause I'm to leet for him. If the monk is attacking I go right after it. I have enemies sit there in Churning Earth and Unsteady Ground for goodness sakes, I don't know where you get they are running from. I find them stupid actually, I can go right into a Margonite group finish off the caster with my 25% damage, I'm spiking them for over 100 damage on crit hits so they drop fast. My ranger hero uses Broad Head too and when she uses it on the caster, especially monk, he drops fast. I don't need a snare, Koss uses KD but I don't even need that. Fact is I own them unless I aggro bad. Sometimes depending on the group and if it's a boss I can still get owned pretty bad, but usually it's me making them cry.

The only thing that bothers me is target my monk, spike more than he and the other two monks can heal (which should be impossible considering SoA and PS) which messes up my team as a whole if he keeps dropping every mob.

OH and Awakened's are a whole new breed of hard if you get 2 Acolytes and Cavaliers that keep rezzing everyone, I don't have room for interupt unless I want to reduce damage and ranger hero doesn't do it right all the time.

I mean there are some problems with Hero's going after people you target, so I switched them all to defend that ended that for the most part.

Blackest Rose · Nov 09, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Well yesterday my car had 4 wheels a steering wheel and was working fine.

Today the car has 3 wheels, the steering wheel on the other side and we switched the brake and gas pedals to mix it up a little... but we put gofaster stripes on it....Hope you like it.

Damnit adapt already - it's still a car right?

Bring your own wheel and recondition yourself to hit the other pedal.....

All change is not for the better.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 09, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackest Rose

All change is not for the better.

And not every change is for the worst. Your analogy doesnt work because this is all about opinion and not an actual physical impairment (i.e. missing a wheel) Show me how the game isnt functional.

Gorebrex · Nov 09, 2006, 09:33 AM // 09:33

I dont think Rose meant functionally, because in the example, the car still works. I think its meant as saying its very frustrating to adapt to something so radically different to what youre used to. People will have to spend a fair amount of time to "get used to it", and they wont ejoy it as mush as playing with the game mechanics theyre familiar with.

Matix411 · Nov 09, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Exactly.
Thank you.

saphir · Nov 09, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

the sad thing is, it's not even that different...

i still use the same tactics i used when playing w/ the old henchies in prophecies. Call target, same priorities i would in proph, heroes/hechies rush in, kill everything, pick up drops, find next group.

The only major difference I've noticed now that the updates are more stable is that all my henchies have elites. It's pretty cool to run around the map while devona uses "Charge" and mhenlo can actually spike heal w/ Word.

Mhenlo has saved my ass quite a few times, and I his. The saddest part is most pugs these days are almost guaranteed to be worse than just straight henches. Just today I was doing a challenge mission and someone brought their hero monk along, and the whole time the monk was spamming Words of comfort and Healing Breeze, then finally at one point after a huge mob had been killed he started to cast Preservation?? These human players bring no rez sigs to challenge missions, and basically no support or defense of any kind..

I don't know what's worse.. a clueless pug player, or a clueless pug player's heroes

Arcador · Nov 09, 2006, 10:20 AM // 10:20

I agree the uber kiting is a bug. I never chase such a mob, althou I've seen it only once.

Never had problems with hencmnen canceling their skills. If you put your heroes to AVOID mode - they will CANCEL their skills in the middle to AVOID combat and run. I think it is old problem, never seen it, maybe it is fixed.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 09, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphir

the sad thing is, it's not even that different...

i still use the same tactics i used when playing w/ the old henchies in prophecies. Call target, same priorities i would in proph, heroes/hechies rush in, kill everything, pick up drops, find next group.

The only major difference I've noticed now that the updates are more stable is that all my henchies have elites. It's pretty cool to run around the map while devona uses "Charge" and mhenlo can actually spike heal w/ Word.

Mhenlo has saved my ass quite a few times, and I his. The saddest part is most pugs these days are almost guaranteed to be worse than just straight henches. Just today I was doing a challenge mission and someone brought their hero monk along, and the whole time the monk was spamming Words of comfort and Healing Breeze, then finally at one point after a huge mob had been killed he started to cast Preservation?? These human players bring no rez sigs to challenge missions, and basically no support or defense of any kind..

I don't know what's worse.. a clueless pug player, or a clueless pug player's heroes

I only used real players to beat one mission, the one where you have to drop the lights on the guy in order to kill him, just because it's easier to drop them all at once. Other than that, I'd rather play with henchies and actually complete a mission.

WasAGuest · Nov 09, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

Thanks for repeatedly flaming even though I've been civil this whole time. And if you find it so easy, then why the hostility? Chill out.

Also, you say there's nothing to adapt to, do you even know what adapting means? If there was no change to adapt to, then why are you complaining? I've seen you make plenty of posts (Not just in this thread) where you basically say you're going to quit the game.

As I said before, chill out. Stop getting worked up under the collar and just enjoy the game. If you can't do that...then yeah just quit the game because it's obviously causing you stress and grief.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across that way, what I meant by that was, you seem like an intellegent person, but I found it odd you are trying to justify adapting to something that is not working... and by that I mean simply...

Adapting to the current AI is not truely adapting, it's exploiting it's stupidity. It can't "think" nor adjust it's own tactics. If snared, as the common theme here suggests, any player knowing how to play the game can walk over the AI. It gets confused and still tries to flee, even while crippled. This allows you to kill it freely while it tries to run. It should attempt to heal itself right?
Now, if the AI in it's current form cold adapt, understand that "Hey, I'm crippled, if I don't stop trying to run and heal myself, I'm dead" then sweet! It doens't though. It keeps running, or at least trying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

What does that mean - "fixing"?
You are contradicting yourself. You keep insisting the curent Ai is easy, nothing to adapt to, etc.
Yet you want to revert to the *mindless* AI of the old and that IS FUN?

And not mention many DID NOT find the old way as fun. That was mindless, insultingly mindless.
If it easy yet asks you to use more gray matter - then why revert to the old way? So we can use the 55 and SS build for the 1000000000000th time?

I really dont see the actual point of your argument. You are speaking in general and subjective terms without explanation.

Try again. I'm not the subject of debate here, the AI is. Typical switch and bait tactic wont work with me... sorry. I've explained several times, and in several different ways. I'll say it again so you don't have to read back.

AI comment, I think your lost on this one. From what Gaile has said, and she quoted O'Brien, so this comes from him, not her; is that the AI we have now is the same that was in place since Chapter 1. The "Old Version" I refer too is the version from the 25th to the 31st of October. During this "old version" the only complaint I ever saw was that the AI favored warriors for aggro. Farmers were up in arms as almost every cookie cutter farming build was hit by the improved damage awareness. Melee mobs would stop attacking if they hurt themselves by hitting the player. They would run back a small distance and heal up. Monk mobs would really kite, not flee the scene; they would stop and heal themselves and others, then continue to kite. Two examples of AI behavior there.

The AI in place during the 25th and 31st was far better than what we have now (again, it needed work, but less work). Therefore your whole SS and 55 comment is rendered pointless and off basis, as that was covered above. Also, I just finished a nice 55 run, SoJ works like it did pre-Nghfall release with a few minor tweaks. Again, nice try to put the focus on me rather than the AI.
Also, I'm not refering to farming builds, if you've read what I said, I've said the current AI is not fun nor entertaining. Never once have I said it is hard...

Again, the 25th and 31st build needed a rework of the targeting system. The current AI needs work on targeting system, danger and threat awareness, a tweaking of the "flee" distance, a total rework of the hold aggro system, and more.
I hold to saying if we want an AI that works, faster, then using the one that requires less work is needed.

Adapting vs expoiting: Can we agree that most farming builds expoit poor AI? I mean really, a mob hits the player till it kills itself. Base this poor coding against a single skill type; easy farming. This is not an adaption of player skill, this is an exploit vs poor AI.
The current AI is so poorly done, that a single skill, any snare (just like a ritualist VwK farming build) can cause the player group to wipe the floor with the AI. Therefore, no adapting has been done, instead the players have moved to exploiting the AI's main weakness. It's inability to know it can't escape while snared... again, it wont even stop to heal itself. We've moved to exploiting the AI not even out of need. Many here say they don't use snares and just switched to hitting harder. The snare just makes killing faster and stops/slows the "Chicken Little - Run the sky is falling" process.

There's a thread here on GWG that people are posting on saying they can minimize the game during a fight and use MSN for a few minutes, come back to pick up the loot. If the AI is that bad and the game is that easy... what's there to adapt too?

Edit: And lastly, I'm not going to quit a game I just spent $50 on. Anet will hear from me daily in the support emails, and in posts till it's fixed; they will also hear from me via telephone once I find a working number. I would suggest either placing my name on ignore if you do not wish to read any more of my posts, cause I will not drop this. I spent $50 on this game, I expect it to be fun and challenging... Anet provides an entertainment service (they maintain the servers and provide the platform - game engine) and we purchase the "ticket" to enjoy the game. I feel they screwed up the "entertainment factor", therefore untill it's fixed, I'll be demanding a change.

xXa1 · Nov 09, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

i love it when sid keeps telling peolpe to adapt. i bought a game and i liked it, then they changed it and made it far less fun than another game for the same price. how should i adapt?

easy, ill go buy the other game instead.

i play games for fun, not to annoy myself. surely im not a masochist. are you?

p.s.: the gop has realized how wrong they were about things and so the arrogant guy near the top comes tumbling down. it's the way of the world. when you fail to listen to the rumblings around you crash with a "thumping."

WasAGuest · Nov 09, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXa1

i love it when sid keeps telling peolpe to adapt. i bought a game and i liked it, then they changed it and made it far less fun than another game for the same price. how should i adapt?

easy, ill go buy the other game instead.

i play games for fun, not to annoy myself. surely im not a masochist. are you?

p.s.: the gop has realized how wrong they were about things and so the arrogant guy near the top comes tumbling down. it's the way of the world. when you fail to listen to the rumblings around you crash with a "thumping."

How so true. lol

I find it odd that people are willing to stick with an AI so easy to exploit and roll over, yet against a change for the better. I can't imagine anyone (that I've read so far) would be against an improved challenge and smarter AI. Yet, suggesting "adaption" to this current slop is just that.
It's like saying "I am for change, but don't want change..." That is apparently beyond my way of thinking. It could be that, since the game is that much easier now, those wishing it to stay, are happy that the AI is so exploitable they can finally walk through the game unstopable? Perhaps that's it.. I just don't know about that... what I do know, is that's no longer fun and not what I purchased.
Similar to signing a 6 months contract with DirecTV. If they change the line up (thus my paid for entertainment) right after I bought the "deal", you can bet they are going to hear about it. - Loosely related I know, but same principle.

xXa1 · Nov 09, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

just want to share my experience helping a friend yesterday at hell's precipice. i was an ss, he was an ele, the rest of the team was hero/hench.

everything was fairly routine until rurik. when we had him all alone, he stopped atacking and walked away from us, walked back to us, walked away from us, walked back again to us .... me and my friend just stopped attacking and watched him degen to death.

my friend asked: "bugged?"
to which i replied, "no, its the new ai behaviour, totally human, rurik simply lost it."

qazwersder · Nov 09, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

I like the new AI, i can use searing heat and firestorm again. I mean they dont jus stand there and take the damage completely, they do move if they are gettin low on health, but its better than me spending 15/25 energy on a skill that will do 20 damage.

Mr_T_bot · Nov 09, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphir

Just today I was doing a challenge mission and someone brought their hero monk along, and the whole time the monk was spamming Words of comfort and Healing Breeze, then finally at one point after a huge mob had been killed he started to cast Preservation?? These human players bring no rez sigs to challenge missions, and basically no support or defense of any kind..

Dunkuro's healing AI capability is, or was during the preview, a fraction of Tahlkora's.

Matsumi · Nov 09, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Adapting vs expoiting: Can we agree that most farming builds expoit poor AI? I mean really, a mob hits the player till it kills itself. Base this poor coding against a single skill type; easy farming. This is not an adaption of player skill, this is an exploit vs poor AI.
The current AI is so poorly done, that a single skill, any snare (just like a ritualist VwK farming build) can cause the player group to wipe the floor with the AI. Therefore, no adapting has been done, instead the players have moved to exploiting the AI's main weakness. It's inability to know it can't escape while snared... again, it wont even stop to heal itself. We've moved to exploiting the AI not even out of need. Many here say they don't use snares and just switched to hitting harder. The snare just makes killing faster and stops/slows the "Chicken Little - Run the sky is falling" process.

I would have to disagree here... people have been exploiting ai weaknesses from the very begining, that's why you have so many solo farming builds to choose from. I used to solo farm from time to time with my 55 monk for spare cash or whatever myself, and have nothing against soloing. If you think just by bringing a snare, you are exploiting the current ai, and it's making the monsters extremely easy to kill, more than before... hate to break it to you, but that's exploiting anyone's weakness if you wanna think about it that way. In PvP or PvE if you're taking too much damage and you try to run or kite, can't, well, you're probably gonna die. Degen and knockdowns also have a similar effect on anyone (including the ai) from being able to successfully kite. To me, that's not an exploit, that's using your skills to effectively kill an opponent, whether it be human controlled, or ai controlled.

Yes, they're probably still working on the current ai, most likely to fine tune some things. I would also think that somebody who wants to solo farm is looking again for another weakness or flaw in it, so that they can create another build to solo. Since in this case, computer controlled opponents tend to have more weaknesses bases on repetition and/or error. But no matter what the change is to from your arguement, it's still not gonna be good enough for you. True, there may be nothing to adapt to for you then, but simply that you're upset with the game, and will not stop until it's changed to your likeness (whatever that may be, since it keeps changing in your posts)... over 50 dollars. I'd hate to think about what the customer service people have to deal with when a power outage happens or the phone goes buggy.

Nightfall and the new ai that they are trying to implement is still very new, and may need some tweaks here and there. Even if it was perfected in how Anet wants it to be, I still don't think you'd be satisfied (just like many others). So yes, during these changes of the ai, people have to adapt to them, little or big, if they're still interested in playing or even like the changes. But if a person is just looking for any reason, however little or trivial, to say that they're quitting guild wars, chances are they won't be around playing much longer... and the complaint threads will grow.

Personally for me, I like the new ai system they're trying to implement, and the new hero/hench control system. It's sparked a new interest in guild wars for me, even though I can't solo as much as before. Solo farming was begining to be more of a chore for me anyways. I wish they would reward more money on the quests and things though, but it's still not hard to make money in this game.

Jetdoc · Nov 09, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Now that we've had some time under the new AI, I can personally say (from a soloer without henchmen/hero standpoint) that I love it.

A few notes:

1. Whenever you encounter a group, there are 1 or 2 enemies in that group that will begin kiting immediately. You can basically count them out (damage wise) until the end of the combat.

2. The kiters follow general escape patterns, and quite often run through (and past) you. If you chase that fleeing enemy, quite often the rest of the enemy group will break aggro with you and simply return to their normal routine.

3. Because the AI in #2 above follows a preset kiting pattern, you normally can simply chase him around and watch where he goes. If he tries to flee up against a wall, simply block his path. He'll stand there and do nothing, trying to squeeze by you. A sitting duck for the kill, without his buddies to harass you.

This makes it extremely easy to kill enemy monks and mesmers.

A few of my "easy" kills *(again solo, without henchmen) from last night:

1. Darda Goldenchief at the end of the Ice Caves of Sorrow mission. Extremely easy to trap her on the bridge.
2. Whisper Insanni (sp?) in the Elona Reach mission.
3. Willa the Unpleasant in the Abaddon's Mouth mission.

3 monk bosses that were very difficult to kill before the AI change are now possible. I'm still trying to do Thunderhead Keep solo (without henchmen/heroes) now that it is possible to separate Confessor Dorian from his cronies. The problem is that the normal "pattern" for his remaining cronies is that they attack the King, which is not too great.

Metsa Pille · Nov 09, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Funny part is that i have seen only one mob in Cantha running away from me further than they have always done and were i the mob in the same situation, i would have ran also. Seems that people have problems with mobs being a little bit more careful now. I mean, first they start to run away from Firestorm and now they don't feel like facing off with about 4 melee characters pounding and slicing their face. Instead they want to run away and see the world some more. And those "explorers" are only a few against the big bunch of "i tank riil good".
So umm yea, i like the new enemy AI.

Clone · Nov 09, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

From what I've read thus far, there are a lot of people who really don't like this. I'd certianly consider myself among them. I've also seen the standard points that people that don't like the change can't deal with anything difficult or are in some means incompetant. But, for the most part, that doesn't really play into the complaints. I can't speak for everyone, but for me it isn't that the updates are too hard. Seeing an enemy caster run around like a chicken with his head cut off at the first sign of danger is by no means difficult. Its simply boring. Changes to the game like this leave some players disinterested and have a clear negative effect.

rubics · Nov 09, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I LOVE the new changes to the AI. I also think it's in complete conformity with the design team's goal of making the vast majority of skills equally useful in PvP and GvG.

Before the spell casters kited, speed boosts on melee characters and snares on ranged characters generally had zero use in PvE. Now they are required.

Combat is now more fluid. Instead of just running up to something and beating on it until it's dead, you need to slow it down to make sure your hits connect. The additional bonus is now that spell casters now do similar DPS to some targets because all of their spells are guaranted to hit, while a meleer will be slowed down whenever he's not on-top of the enemy.

With the addition of heroes, there's really no excuse for not being able to snare the enemy. If you can't fit one on your bar, put it on one of your heroes' bars.

PvE combat is still less engaging than PvP combat, but the AI changes are a definite step in the right direction.

WasAGuest · Nov 09, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsumi

I would have to disagree here... people have been exploiting ai weaknesses from the very begining, that's why you have so many solo farming builds to choose from. I used to solo farm from time to time with my 55 monk for spare cash or whatever myself, and have nothing against soloing. If you think just by bringing a snare, you are exploiting the current ai, and it's making the monsters extremely easy to kill, more than before... hate to break it to you, but that's exploiting anyone's weakness if you wanna think about it that way. In PvP or PvE if you're taking too much damage and you try to run or kite, can't, well, you're probably gonna die. Degen and knockdowns also have a similar effect on anyone (including the ai) from being able to successfully kite. To me, that's not an exploit, that's using your skills to effectively kill an opponent, whether it be human controlled, or ai controlled.

Actually, you agree with me, just not seeing it clearly. Or maybe don't like that the point is clear and the current AI is so bugged.
I've bolded an important note and quote below:

"In PvP or PvE if you're taking too much damage and you try to run or kite, can't, well, you're probably gonna die. Degen and knockdowns also have a similar effect on anyone (including the ai) from being able to successfully kite."

First, this isn't PvP. So comparing it to PvE is silly. The AI can not adapt to changing situations. It can only react (if coded properly) to actions done by the players.
Second, you state yourself that "if your taking too much damage"... mobs will flee upon being called as a target, or being hit once. Therefore, the mobs clearly have no scripting in what "too much damage" is. Therefore, they are far too easy to walk over. They can't cast or fight if all they are doing is running away.
Third, Degens and conditions do not have a like effect on the current AI. It often causes the AI to run in circles lost and confused. I do nt recall seeing many players (since we seem to want to compare AI to living thinking players - which itself is silly) run in circles when they have "monster cooties".

So you agree that mobs should run when they are in "real" danger. You also agree that the current AI is comlpetely exploitable, however you try to reword and refocus the issue on adaption vs exploitation.
There is nothing to adapt too. There is no change needed in the game play, unless you simply want to kill faster.

Doubters should read this: link

If the game is that easy, clearly something is wrong.